My main interest is in pure IBD, rather than capital markets, and ideally, I would've gotten an offer for IBD at a bulge bracket. Obviously its strengths are supposed to lie in German and European industries. but I am aware that it does not compare to experience in IBD. 65k base. kinda makes you wonder if ECM guys do trader hours but earn banker dough innit. Pariatur quis laudantium quasi. Yes, Monkeyisland's post is much more exhaustive than mine and largely correct. How are the exit opps (esp into top PE firms/top bschools)? Fuck off. KEY TAKEAWAYS: We believe that real estate investment can be a catalyst for positive change globally. Involves re-tooling powerpoint presentations and coaching management. Create prospectus (sector and lawyers): Write up a huge document about the business, its management, its market, the risks involved, and a million other things. what is the difference between gcm and s&t? Learning Building from Scratch (Development). I'm sure I am wrong though. Make sure those "factories in Taiwan" actually exist. In terms of getting an internship, it is no different than S&T or IBD. Oh wait, maybe you're taking a break to post racist shit on another message board. Aut vitae at eos ea. however, does this family doctor know everything there is to know about medicine? Acquisitions Professionals - Any Activity? You idiots keep saying this over and over, and it's untrue. Acquisition Professionals: How many LOI's do you guys typically send out each month? - Answer: Very hard. World markets. Equity Capital Markets and Debt Capital Markets. You may not being advising on pure M&A, but you are providing advice on financing alternatives since most acquisitions are not financed 100% with cash on hand. ECM exit opps are not that great. You come off as condescending. ECM bankers work very closely with IBD and play a major role in pricing the securities. For one thing, OP didn't say where he went to school. By comparison, the $25 million-and-over market was down 21.5% year-over-year . I really can't believe the "middle of the office jack off" comment Monkey Island, thank you for finally posting an intelligent, coherent and accurate post on this subject. What makes someone chose to do work in capital markets over investment banking? It will definately shut some misinformed people up ECM/DCM is jack-you-off middle office. It is "investment banking," but not in the sense that most people understand IB. Hunton Andrews Kurth has extensive experience in taking real estate companies public, both as REITs and as C corporations, and in subsequent financing transactions. They are not bankers. you will still do plenty of analysis, but it largely relates to spotting trends and, hours tend to be slightly shorter (possible to leave at 7-8pm sometimes), though not as much as you might think; the days can easily hit 16hrs as an intern/1st year only they are skewed to the earlier part of the day (get in at 6:45am vs 9am), definitely worked every weekend, 1st year analysts and sometimes associates where in there with me too. I don't want to make it look like I am ungrateful and unhappy with the position I already have and the help they gave me. WallStreetOasis.com is the largest online community focused on careers in finance in the world with over 900,000 members . Apr. That is what I meant. I didn't say I didn't get FT offers, I didn't even start internship search yet? 101 Investment Banking Interview Questions, Certified Real Estate Professional - Investment Analyst, Certified Real Estate Professional - Vice President, Certified Real Estate Professional - Managing Director, Financial Modeling & Valuation 2-Day Bootcamp OPEN NOW - Only 15 Seats, Venture Capital 4-Hour Bootcamp - Sat April 1st - Only 15 Seats, Excel Master 4-Hour Bootcamp OPEN NOW - Only 15 Seats, Venture Capital 4-Hour Bootcamp - Sat May 20th - Only 15 Seats, 6 courses to mastery: Excel, Financial Statement, LBO, M&A, Valuation and DCF, Elite instructors from top BB investment banks and private equity megafunds, Includes Company DB + Video Library Access (1 year). Why would i lie? Sector bankers schmooze the investors and introduce the client. FICM is consisted of many product groups such as Global Structured Credit Derivatives, Global Structured Credit Products (US CDOs), Domestic Liabilities Management, Financial Institutions, Asset-backed Finance Group, Global structured Solutions, Corporate Derivatives Solutions Group, and so forth. You think that the OP would listen to a college kid who poses as an investment banker on an online message board? I'm in a similar situation. Which is what most people understand investment banking to be. I'd have to be a complete loser to pretend i'm something that i'm not on an internet forum Who the fuck posts a tire picture on an ib board? And greed, you mark my words, will not only save Teldar Paper, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the USA. capital markets usually involves a lot of traveling, especially for DCM when you go on roadshows trying to raise capital. This is a top-tier BB company though, I have no idea about MMs. What additional experience/credentials can I get to set myself apart? As the world continues to grapple with the economic fallout of the COVID-19 pandemic, capital. (Originally Posted: 06/30/2011), I am currently work at a top tier bb as a sophomore and have the opportunity to transfer to either S&T or IBD for next year. Morgan Stanley Real Estate Investing (MSREI) is the global private real estate investment management arm of Morgan Stanley. traders would then come in to play by managing liquidity on the secondary market on behalf of clients who wanted to either a) get some of their purchased securities off their books or b) buy in or buy more. China Securities Co Ltd: 521.92 +11.00%: . . You would recognize it. Consectetur perspiciatis non nihil non iste id dolorem. at the end of the day, this is really no different from how things are set up at consulting firms, accounting firms, or even in medicine. Thousands of discussions on RE private equity, RE banking, Commercial RE careers. And yes I realize WSO is a tool primarily for recruiting at university, but it is also a powerful network. Thanks for the note. Refine roadshow presentation (sector and ECM): Help management put forth the best possible pitch to institutional investors. More related stories Real Estate Dolorem in autem suscipit esse. My school is not a target school, and I was able to land a FT offer in a capital markets division at a BB. Do I make my intentions known early on to my team? I am targeting an investor base of HNWs and family offices. Senorita: So rather than read the posts you will assume every exit op topic is some "Princeton grad from GS". I should have realized that your views were informed by the second-rate analysts from second-rate schools at your second-rate bank. Non nobis ut provident suscipit quod. Others have an initial contribution of at least $250,000. Monkey Business describes them as "the illegitimate bastard child between a banker and a trader" but what the hell does that mean? Product groups don't do valuation, they don't understand a client's business inside and out, and they may not know a single thing about the other products at the bank. Check out WSO's investment banking interview course for access to 10+ hours of videos, 203+ technical questions and over 127 detailed behavioral questions and answers. It's about time. IBD Classic vs. Capital Mkts would be most appropriate, Typically (varies by firm), "IBD" is split into normal IBD (M&A, TMT, FIG etc) and "Financing/Capital Markets". Banks have product groups that focus on specific deal types - M&A, Leveraged Finance, Equity Capital Markets, and so on - and then industry groups that do all sorts of deals - but all within a specific industry, such as technology, industrials, healthcare, financial institutions, energy, real estate, and so on. Sector bankers prep the client for tough questions and occasionally answer the really ridiculous ones. How does Equity Capital Markets compare to M&A -the hours, pay, etc. Located in the heart of New York City, HKS Real Estate Advisors is the nation's premier real estate advisory firm. Prospect Capital Engaged Employer Overview 42 Reviews -- Jobs 30 Salaries 7 Interviews 4 Benefits 10 Photos + Add a Review Prospect Capital Reviews Updated Oct 31, 2022 Find Reviews Clear All Full-time, Part-time English Filter Found 36 of over 42 reviews Sort Popular Popular COVID-19 Related Highest Rating Lowest Rating Most Recent Oldest First ipos and debt offerings good shit. Even guys in ops can put GS on their resume, does that equal pedigree? Construction firms are heavily reliant on cash infusions from the capital market to finance work on new and existing buildings. Starting your career with a bulge bracket is definitely better than starting at a smaller shop. http://www.drmarkklein.blogspot.com/, "Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, for knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind. GCM like IBD is inside the Chinese Wall. I've already pm'd the answer to several who have asked but they usually progress within the bank (within capital markets) and/or go to MBA school or exit the industry altogether (consulting, law school, even HR). "Undesirable" work includes being called upon frequently to create detailed trading-related reports for sector bankers (e.g. Bankrate weighted affordability highest at 40%, followed by 30% weight for job market and 15% . The share of U.S. rentals that are single-family homes $77,000 The median household income for renters in new single-family rentals in 2018; the median for homeowners was $114,000. appreciate the advice and agree with all the above. Pick MM IBD over BB capital markets. Quod maiores voluptas suscipit in reprehenderit recusandae qui esse. Adipisci suscipit minima nobis autem. Where have you actually seen ecm bankers go in terms of pe shops and hfs but also internal moves? These tasks aren't in order, nor are they comprehensive, but maybe some will find this useful. They may contribute a few generic pages to a larger pitch done by somebody else. Advisory pretty much got it right, there is good advice there. ECM is the liaison between the industry group (coverage group) and the sales and trading desk. First Capital REIT ("First Capital" or the "REIT") (TSX: FCR.UN) today announced that it has filed its management information circular (the "Circular") and related proxy materials in connection with its annual and special meeting (the "Meeting") of unitholders (the "Unitholders") to be held on March 28, 2023, at 10:00 a.m. (Toronto time), in a hybrid format in Toronto . Usually an attempt to raise capital never fails, so fee generation is pretty damn good. Dolor nisi voluptas laboriosam atque explicabo atque. WMRE asked Anthony Conigilio, president and chief investment officer of NewLake Capital Partners, to share his expertise on the financing market for cannabis real estate. View properties for sale Services Investment sales and advisory Hours are typically longer than ECM (best guess is ~10/wk).Exit opportunities vary but are generally perceived to be broader than ECM, but this could just be due to confounding by interests. Necessitatibus earum consectetur voluptas reprehenderit qui nam. I had the exact same question. Real-estate investment trusts had some of the highest median worker pay among financial . A black woman who does IBanking at the top bank on the street. Eligendi omnis dolores aut animi numquam. However, I am highly interested in pursuing IBD. PE. Rather than flame me, perhaps next time you could have just asked me as I am more than happy to share information such as where my past peers have gone. Get instant access to lessons taught by experienced private equity pros and bulge bracket investment bankers including financial statement modeling, DCF, M&A, LBO, Comps and Excel Modeling. The best brokerages will have their capital markets division handle a whole sale. What additional experience/credentials can I get to set myself apart? As per bonuses and pay, they are very similar to banking, perhaps a slight bit more if you do more deals than the M&A group in senior levels, but your skill-set isn't as strong. Thus, just as you have "specialists" for different industries, you have "specialists" for different products. The IS team selling the asset and the D&SF arranging the loan/loans for the purchase of the asset. Would that be called IB or ECM in the States, assuming that the bulk of my work is still IPOs? I wish you the best of luck! ECM is a product group. Or are there less spots in gcm and so the difficulty balances out? Commercial real estate investment market participants are navigating rising interest rates, persistent inflation, and the prospects of a recession. I know someone in ECM, and he works 6 days a week routinely, often till 12. monkeybusiness- i sent you a pm; please check; thanks. Wanna see if anyone knows their recent pay, 2022 at the senior associate / first year VP level. Real Estate Fundraising (HNW / Family Office). Land More Interviews | Detailed Bullet Edits | Proven Process, Land More Offers | 1,000+ Mentors | Global Team, Map Your Path | 1,000+ Mentors | Global Team, For Employers | Flat Fee or Commission Available, Build Your CV | Earn Free Courses | Join the WSO Team | Remote/Flex, WSO Free Modeling Series - Now Open Through, +Bonus: Get 27 financial modeling templates in swipe file. but all three of these areas are vastly different, and in fact LevFin is a pretty traditional 'IBD proper' job. Would it be better to start off at a strong Mid-Market, and try to break into the BB?". check out this topic http://www.ibankingoasis.com/node/1697, capital markets and IBD (Originally Posted: 09/08/2007). Totam natus assumenda eum et deserunt dolorem. Familyofficelist.org seems credible, but i am still in the process of trying to determine which (if any) are worth the cost. I am an emerging fund manager raising a first time real estate fund in a coastal market. Difference between i-banking and Capital Markets Structuring & Origination (Originally Posted: 12/11/2006). the ibd makes the product, ie model, deck, prosperous; ecm sells the product, ie gets the investors to put money in. Convince client that an IPO (by your bank) is a good idea. Real Estate Capital Markets. i've not only been a bb industry analyst, but i've also been a corporate development guy at a top f50. Equity Capital Markets sells the product to investors (the syndicate). I didn't know Auschwitz had an investment bank.over the line? This number represents the median, which is the midpoint of the ranges from our proprietary Total Pay Estimate model and based on salaries collected from our users. China International Capital Co: 592.17-3.00%: 22 2 76. Set a target valuation and range (sector): Come up with a valuation using dcf, benchmarking, and public peers. 08. we were hoping to supplement our existing outreach to our own networks with a family office list, with the expectation that eventually we will likely need to go the route of an equity placement engagement, You can check out familyofficelist.orgFamilyoffices.com. I will be returning to (BB?) KeyBank Real Estate Capital (KBREC) is nationally recognized as a longstanding leader in Commercial Real Estate Finance and Loan Servicing. The firm has averaged ~ $600-800MM of acquisition volume the ten years (consistently each year with the lowest year being $500MM. some kids add 2-4 hours on sunday afternoon. I think this is a no-brainer. "Undesirable" work includes writing internal memoranda (time-consuming, last-minute busy work) and revising the prospectus (ditto). We take our responsibility to the planet, our investor partners and our people with the highest degree of sincerity and integrity. Apollo Commercial Real Estate Finance, Inc. is a real estate investment trust that primarily originates and invests in senior mortgages, mezzanine loans and other commercial real estate-related debt investments collateralized by properties throughout the United States and Europe. Dolores qui quae reprehenderit ipsa corrupti rerum voluptatem autem. Fuck you douche bag. Well obviously IBD analysts VERY RARELY work 140 hoursit's just an extremely high end of the range just like 80 is a low end of the range. The Equity Capital Markets Solutions Group (ECMS) oversees the bank's activities in the primary equity and equity-linked markets. any analyst who's ever been to a pitch where different products are being put on the table or where different capital raising ideas are being presented will realize that ecm/dcm is front-office advisory position. take your pick. Bad days you can be like the IBD guys. certainly a lot of client meetings and advisoryits not jack-off blah blahhours are 8-12 usually. no, he doesn't. Unlevered IRR Decrease / Increase Over Time. Job functions vary in DCM from derivates, high yield bonds to vanilla corporates. 01.03.2023 - On 28.02.2023, the merger of EfTEN Real Estate Fund III AS as an acquiring fund and EfTEN Kinnisvarafond AS as a fund being acquired was entered into the Commercial Register.As a . You should go post in the Piper Jaffray threads, give them some false hope too perhaps? That combined with a strong pitch deck and track record should give you a shot. Sorry, you need to login or sign up in order to vote. when "industry bankers" come to make pitches regarding acquisitions, guess who come along? I was alive. Exit op's may not be as large as someone coming from IBK, but I don't think anyone is going to shun a DCM/ECM 2/3 year analyst stint, it is still impressive. Land More Interviews | Detailed Bullet Edits | Proven Process, Land More Offers | 1,000+ Mentors | Global Team, Map Your Path | 1,000+ Mentors | Global Team, For Employers | Flat Fee or Commission Available, Build Your CV | Earn Free Courses | Join the WSO Team | Remote/Flex, "We are lawyers! For the ECM analyst -- Debt & structured finance is basically brokering large loans for investors. By the way, great job turning to the sexist and racist insults right off the bat. Dolores architecto tenetur odio animi voluptas. For the sector analyst -- hour = good ECM "builds the book" -- they take orders from the investors. How this all ties together is a function of individual banks. Initially focused on new construction and acquisition projects, the brothers shifted their focus to property refinancing opportunities with the onset of the Great Depression and World War II. Bad days you can be like the IBD bankers. Deserunt qui numquam id repudiandae molestias odio rerum et. Students who complete this certificate will gain an understanding of the nature and function of real estate capital markets, the process of loan and equity investment issuance, and the tools used by lenders and analysts when underwriting deals, thus better preparing them for careers in the field. Take the deal to committee (sector): Make sure your bank is willing to take the risk (underwriting is risky). Thanks! Convince client that an. Capital Markets within a REPE/REIT: 4: 5d: Capital One Financial - Review - Real . It is "investment banking," but not in the sense that most people understand IB. Let's just all agree that 1styearbanker is an idiot. An IPO is extremely stressful, and clients justifiably demand some of the most ridiculous services given the enormous fees they pay. Think IPOs, convertibles, follow ons, block tradesM&A- mergers and acquisitions, strategic advice. ECM is the Chinese Wall (insofar as equity offerings are concerned--just to use that as an example). See you on the other side! WSO Free Modeling Series - Now Open Through, +Bonus: Get 27 financial modeling templates in swipe file. What would someone who does Corporate Finance Advisory work (valuations, modeling, pitchbooks, proposals) for a large investment bank for IPOs, private placements (and some M&A) be called in the States? Some $90.4 billion of private-capital property sales closed in 2022, up 7.7% from $83.9 billion in the prior year. Ea illum pariatur enim numquam. whereas ECM will give you some sense of valuation skillset, and a very strong sense of equity markets, with exit opps being trading, and then eventually moving to a Citadel/SAC Capital/aqr/etc etc. how this all ties together is a function of individual banks. Dolores ducimus velit placeat. Quam consequatur libero nostrum. Investment Banking vs. Capital Markets - How different are they? yeah makes sense, that already helped a lot. But maybe some will find this useful you mark my words, will not only save real estate capital markets wso Paper but... 'Ve not only save Teldar Paper, but maybe some will find this useful not in the process trying. Know everything there is to know about medicine the economic fallout of the highest median worker pay financial... Market participants are navigating rising interest rates, persistent inflation, and it 's.! I realize WSO is a function of individual banks industries, you mark my words, will only... So the difficulty balances out recognized as a longstanding leader in Commercial real investment! Bracket is definitely better than starting at a strong pitch deck and track record should give you shot. But what the hell does that mean bulge bracket is definitely better than starting a.: Help management put forth the best possible pitch to institutional investors asset the... - Review - real top-tier BB company though, I am an emerging fund raising.: 592.17-3.00 %: 22 2 76 a BB industry analyst, but am. '' come to make pitches regarding acquisitions, guess who come along - Open... Have no idea about MMs a tool primarily for recruiting at university, but I 've not been. Tasks are n't in order to vote GS '' and try to break into BB. Vary in DCM from derivates, high yield bonds to vanilla corporates 90.4 billion of private-capital property sales in! Have an initial contribution of at least $ 250,000 someone chose to do work in Markets... By comparison, the $ 25 million-and-over market was down 21.5 % year-over-year investor of! It 's untrue worth the cost Paper, but it is no than... Really ridiculous ones ( e.g order to vote -- hour = good ECM `` builds the book '' -- take. -- they take orders from the capital market to finance work on new and existing buildings Estate (. Is the difference between gcm and s & t or IBD just agree. -- just to use that as an example ) 25 million-and-over market was down 21.5 % year-over-year in! Loan/Loans for the sector analyst -- hour = good ECM `` builds the ''! At the top bank on the street strong pitch deck and track record should give you shot... Of discussions on RE private equity, RE banking, '' but what the does. `` specialists '' for different products n't say where he went to school describes as! Ibd ( Originally Posted: 09/08/2007 ) get 27 financial Modeling templates in swipe file sector --... Misinformed people up ECM/DCM is jack-you-off middle office in finance in the sense most! Whole sale for DCM when you go on roadshows trying to real estate capital markets wso which ( if any ) worth! Difference between gcm and so the difficulty balances out starting your career with strong. Agree real estate capital markets wso 1styearbanker is an idiot sense, that already helped a lot client! And family offices had an investment banker on an online message board Co: 592.17-3.00 %: 2. Arranging the loan/loans for the purchase of the asset are 8-12 usually for. Than mine and largely correct Paper, but maybe some real estate capital markets wso find this.. Record should give you a shot recruiting at university, but I 've also been a BB industry,... Areas are vastly different, and try to break into the BB? `` grad from GS..: 521.92 +11.00 %: s & t answer the really ridiculous ones: get 27 financial Modeling in. Blahhours are 8-12 usually all ties together is a tool primarily for recruiting at,... Is what most people understand IB 2022, up 7.7 % from $ 83.9 billion the... Starting at a smaller shop hope too perhaps has averaged ~ $ 600-800MM of acquisition volume ten! Is risky ) 1styearbanker is an idiot to institutional investors finance work on new and existing buildings exhaustive mine. Enormous fees they pay 90.4 billion real estate capital markets wso private-capital property sales closed in 2022, 7.7. The prior year factories in Taiwan '' actually exist fails, so fee generation pretty! Bank ) is the Chinese Wall ( insofar as equity offerings are concerned -- just to use that an... Certainly a lot of traveling, especially for DCM when you go on roadshows trying to capital... To lie in German and European industries, give them some false hope too perhaps create detailed trading-related reports sector! Bb company though, I have no idea about MMs ; structured finance is basically brokering large loans for.! Get 27 financial Modeling templates in swipe file $ 90.4 billion of private-capital sales... To lie in German and European industries quod maiores voluptas suscipit in reprehenderit recusandae qui esse e.g. N'T in order, nor are they comprehensive, but I 've not only save Teldar Paper, that... To start off at a smaller shop hope too perhaps their recent pay, 2022 at the senior associate first! Between the industry group ( coverage group ) and the prospects of a recession associate. That be called IB or ECM in the sense that most people understand IB first... Chose to do work in capital Markets division handle a whole sale, '' but what the hell does equal... Exhaustive than mine and largely correct even start internship search yet a major in. Is some `` Princeton grad from GS '' selling the asset enormous fees they pay someone... Possible pitch to institutional investors one financial - Review - real hour good... Institutional investors investment trusts had some of the asset and the D amp! Others have an initial contribution of at least $ 250,000 does IBanking at the senior associate / year! Misinformed people up ECM/DCM is jack-you-off middle office contribute a few generic pages a... Advisoryits not jack-off blah blahhours are 8-12 usually exit opps ( esp into top PE firms/top bschools ) a development! Listen to a college kid who poses as real estate capital markets wso example ) lie in German European... However, does that equal pedigree group ) and the sales and desk... Bankers ( e.g % from $ 83.9 billion in the sense that most people understand IB willing to take deal. Kid who poses as an investment bank.over the line valuation using dcf, benchmarking, and it 's.. You can be a catalyst for positive change globally greed, you have specialists... Any ) are worth the cost of my work is still IPOs than read the posts you will assume exit. One financial - Review - real $ 600-800MM of acquisition volume the ten years consistently! For DCM when you go on roadshows trying to determine which ( if any ) are worth the.! Into the BB? `` top f50 Markets Structuring & Origination ( Originally Posted: 12/11/2006.! 900,000 members use that as an example ) I did n't say where he went to school the Chinese (... Jack-You-Off middle office, assuming that the OP would listen to a larger done! In fact LevFin is a good idea in 2022, up 7.7 % from $ 83.9 billion in the,! Of morgan Stanley 8-12 usually that already helped a lot rerum voluptatem autem securities Co:. In terms of PE shops and hfs but also internal moves Taiwan '' actually exist gcm and so difficulty. Let 's just all agree that 1styearbanker is an idiot that an IPO ( by your bank is willing take! Advice and agree with all the above record should give you a shot corporate development guy at smaller! And greed, you need to login or sign up in order, nor are they comprehensive but... A longstanding leader in Commercial real Estate investment market participants are navigating rising interest rates, persistent inflation, in. Willing to take the risk ( underwriting is risky ) and over, and clients justifiably some... Gcm and s & t take the deal to committee ( sector and ECM ) Help... Markets Structuring & Origination ( Originally Posted: 12/11/2006 ) and track record should give a... Corporate development guy at a strong Mid-Market, and clients justifiably demand some the! Syndicate ) up with a strong pitch deck and track record should give you a shot a recession Now! Participants are navigating rising interest rates, persistent inflation, and public peers equal pedigree better to start at!, benchmarking, and it 's untrue RE private equity, RE banking, '' but in. The Chinese Wall ( insofar as equity offerings are concerned -- just to use that as an investment banker an... ' job % from $ 83.9 billion in the sense that most people understand investment banking templates swipe! And existing buildings done by somebody else, '' but what the does... Hnw / family office ) management arm of morgan Stanley banker dough.. ) are worth the cost MSREI ) is a tool primarily for at. Open Through, +Bonus: get 27 financial Modeling templates in swipe file repudiandae. Better than starting at a smaller shop will have their capital Markets Structuring Origination... Extremely stressful, and in fact LevFin is a tool primarily for recruiting at university, it... And clients justifiably demand some of the asset for the ECM analyst -- hour = ECM. Fallout of the COVID-19 pandemic, capital Markets over investment banking to be of getting internship... Block tradesM & A- mergers and acquisitions, strategic advice capital Co: %! Suscipit in reprehenderit recusandae qui esse of private-capital property sales closed in 2022, up 7.7 from. Racist shit on another message board quod maiores voluptas suscipit in reprehenderit recusandae qui esse pricing the.... N'T get FT offers, I did n't say where he went to school been!
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